Arinze explains Mortal Sin--Should we take the Mortal Sin dogma seriously?

ortal sin and mercy confusion

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I read the thread s mortal Sin Dogma? http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...=584403&page=3

... and am left with some questions. Starting a new thread not to take over that one.

Here's what confusing...

I want to do the right thing and don't always do it (see Romans6-8), it appears that all men face this (at least Paul did). So if the Catholic dogma is that we go to hell after committing one mortal sin and not repenting, then how does that co-exist with this passage from Romans about how we sometimes do not do right but we are set free in Christ?

I know I have mortal sin, and really, wouldn't pretty much anyone who hasn't spiritually matured to a great extent in their life, have mortal sin? So is there no hope for a less mature person in her faith to be saved for sure? Because let's say I commit a mortal sin every ten days or so and I am working on it, praying, confessing, but there are maybe 3 days I am in a state of mortal sin out of every two weeks. So I pray an Act of Contrition and I want to follow God but at that moment I have some doubts that I will not really ever stop this sinning and I give in and do the sinful act. So does that mean I haven't really been repentant and will go to hell if I die before I make it to confession?

How does that all stack up with what people always say, priests included in confession, to trust in God's mercy, and that remember it takes time to overcome a lifetime of sin? I don't see how it can be both--you commit sin, die and go to hell... and you commit sin regularly and you are trying to stop it but haven't yet and you are supposed to trust God's mercy.

Finally, if a person while in the moment of temptation knows they are going to sin, says "God forgive me" and they really mean it, but they do it anyway (because of weak will or whatever) even though they know it is wrong, what would God make of that? Would they be forgiven or not?

I hope this makes sense. I find all this to be confusing.

#2   Aug 4, '11, 4:40 pm

PJM Senior Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 8,507 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: Mortal sin and mercy confusion [quote]=AnneTeresa;8205293]I read the thread s mortal Sin Dogma? http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...=584403&page=3 ... and am left with some questions. Starting a new thread not to take over that one. Here's what confusing... I want to do the right thing and don't always do it (see Romans6-8), it appears that all men face this (at least Paul did). So if the Catholic dogma is that we go to hell after committing one mortal sin and not repenting, then how does that co-exist with this passage from Romans about how we sometimes do not do right but we are set free in Christ? I know I have mortal sin, and really, wouldn't pretty much anyone who hasn't spiritually matured to a great extent in their life, have mortal sin? So is there no hope for a less mature person in her faith to be saved for sure? Because let's say I commit a mortal sin every ten days or so and I am working on it, praying, confessing, but there are maybe 3 days I am in a state of mortal sin out of every two weeks. So I pray an Act of Contrition and I want to follow God but at that moment I have some doubts that I will not really ever stop this sinning and I give in and do the sinful act. So does that mean I haven't really been repentant and will go to hell if I die before I make it to confession? My dear frind in Christ: at first I though this was going to an easy one to reply too "Being set free" as Paul recounts is refers to the GRACE necessary NOT to sin. It's NOT a statement of eternal and INSTANT forgiveness." I hope that address that issue for you? If not let me know. Now for the balacne of your post. Without knowing information that I do NOT wish to know; I can't be definitely precise. Are you aware of the THREE MUST BE THERE CONDITIONS fora Mortal sin to exist? 1. GREAVIOUS MATTER [If 100 Informed and practicing Catholics were asked is "such and such a Mortal sin" and over half say: "yes" then it LIKELY is. 2. One has to the KNOW the answer to Q #1 in order to get to this: DO yo KNOW Bfore you so [whatever] that it FACTUALLY IS a Mortal sin? You must Know in advance for it to be one. 3. Knowing it before hand and STILL desireing to do "it" then c9onstiyues a Mortal sin. That said: Conditions, like habit, addition, or some such factor CAN at times, reduce the severity of a sin. THIS IS A CRITIAL ISSUE AND MUST BE DISCUSSED WITH YOUR CONFESSOR ASAP. PERFECT Contrition is the ONLY way short of s MANDATORY Confession [NOT an option to Confession], to be forgiven. BUT Perfect Contrition REQUIRES a FIRM PURPOSE of admendant. Meaning you make a SERIOUS commitment to avoid the "near occassion of sin" and with God's help will NOT sin in this way again. From what your sharing this is somewhat doubtful BUT MUST be discused with your Confressor who will have ALL of the facts that I am missing. "Perfect Contrition: is in God's judgment NOT ours. The HUGE variable of HOW sincere you are about not sinning this way again is the KEY. Don't DELAY; Get to Confession ASAP! And tell the whole ENTIRE truth. You'll be gald you did God Bless you, I'll add you to my daily prayer list, Pat __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."

#3   Aug 4, '11, 7:32 pm

COPLAND 3 Regular Member   Join Date: January 13, 2008 Posts: 2,583 Religion: Catholic

Re: Mortal sin and mercy confusion First I would make sure that you are not confusing some mortal sins with venial sins. Everyone has something that causes them problems. For many men, lust is a biggy. But most mortal sins are not as easy to consistantly commit as many venial sins. The 10 commandments is one example of mortal sins. Murder, adultery, worshipping false gods, etc., are not usually something that committed Catholics do all the time. St. Paul gives a list as well, Quote: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-20). Paul also tells the Corinthians, "know you no that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards nor railers, nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). I mention this because I am afraid you may be thinking some venial sins are mortal, and may be overly worried. Second of all, God is a just God, He is fair, and He is full of mercy. He is not waiting for us to mess up so He can pounce on us. It is true that we need to go to confession ASAP after comitting a mortal sin, just as we need to be baptized to become a Christian. But God is merciful and understands every circumstance of all of us. For the person who plans to be baptized but dies before given the chance, God judges them by their intentions, and will grant a baptism of desire. I imagine when someone who fully intends to confess a mortal sin to a priest and dies before given that chance, God who is full of mercy will judge that person fairly as a loving Father. God's love for us is beyond our imagination. He loves us, He is our Father in Heaven. God knows our struggle with flesh and blood, and He will help us to overcome sin, and will continue to be merciful when we fall short. Your concern and honesty is something that I admire. But I think you may need to lighten up some and see the mercy of God for what it is. If not you will go crazy! __________________ Check out the Aquinas Study Bible in progress! https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home Daily Mass Readings with commentary https://sites.google.com/site/jlchri...-mass-readings

#4   Aug 6, '11, 11:57 am

AnneTeresa Regular Member   Join Date: October 9, 2010 Posts: 755 Religion: catholic

Re: Mortal sin and mercy confusion Thank you both for your replies. I don't know why I was getting so confused. I think I need to trust God more for his mercy and just keep seeking Him every day. If I focus too much on sin it can become a problem. I do understand mortal sin but even when knowing the definition, there are still some gray areas. I truly see how this life is a spiritual battle if we are trying to follow Christ and we must persevere and not give up. Knowing God's love is essential, as the priest I went to confession reminded me, I need to meditate on that love.

#5   Aug 6, '11, 6:40 pm

PJM Senior Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 8,507 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: Mortal sin and mercy confusion Quote: =AnneTeresa;8212548]Thank you both for your replies. I don't know why I was getting so confused. I think I need to trust God more for his mercy and just keep seeking Him every day. If I focus too much on sin it can become a problem. I do understand mortal sin but even when knowing the definition, there are still some gray areas. I truly see how this life is a spiritual battle if we are trying to follow Christ and we must persevere and not give up. Knowing God's love is essential, as the priest I went to confession reminded me, I need to meditate on that love.    Jul 28, '11, 4:47 pm thistle Forum Elder   Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 16,709 Religion: Catholic Re: Should we take the Mortal Sin dogma seriously? Quote: Originally Posted by Mijoy2 We are taught faith and reason are not contradictory. This is extremely unreasonable. I do not necassarily question your doctrine though. However it does make me think the entire thing just may be horse manure. In the atheist vs theist debate, this issue is a whopping 1 point for the athiest. It is not my doctrine. It is the doctrine of the Church which was given authority by Christ in matters of faith and morals. That means in such matters the teachings of the Church are fully supported by Christ.   #24   Jul 28, '11, 5:44 pm PJM Senior Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 8,507 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic Re: Should we take the Mortal Sin dogma seriously? [QUOTE\=sapphire778;8173101]Hi guys. From my understanding of the Church's teachings, all who die in the state of mortal sin are not saved and they will spend an eternity in Hell, right? Now, we know that acts such as lying (even casually) or missing Sunday obligations are considered "mortal sins". My point is, it is easy to commit a mortal sin and we are not always conscious to repent of it since most of the time these acts are often overlooked and dismissed. I can't imagine someone who's lived a life worshipping God, suddenly missing a Sunday mass to hang around with friends, die before confessing his sins, and end up in hell. Same with someone who lies etc. Do you think that I have interpreted the Teaching wrongly? Maybe 'to die in the state of mortal sin' is constituted by something more persistent and severe (like committing many mortal sins out of pure rebellion towards God), which then makes one only a "Catholic" by name and therefore he cannot be saved? I know God can choose to save, and there are exceptions...But this doctrine just sounds abit difficult for me to swallow. Any thoughts? [/quote] Thats Satan's sales pitch too If you believe the Bible is the Inspired Word of God: LOOK, Learn and PRAY, Friend, PRAY.. “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [B ]If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."[/b] 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. John.20 Verses 20 to 23]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." Exo. 20: And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me.” "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day” "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. “ 4. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you. 5. "You shall not kill. “ 6. "You shall not commit adultery”. 7. "You shall not steal”. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” 9. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; or property” 10.“you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbors." COMANDMENTS friend are NOT mere suggestions seeking your approval. THEY ARE THE MINIMUM OF WHAT GOD DEMANDS FORM US. WE; YOU AND ME CHOOSE WHERE WE WILL SPEND ETERNITY. GOD APPROVES OUR FREEWILL CHOICES. Matt.7: 13-14 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few So who ARE YOU going to believe? 2nd. Tim. 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work John.8: 44 "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." Don't buy the BIG LIE that Satan does not exist. God GAVE YOU a mind, intellect and FREEWILL so that YOUR COULD DECIDE your own fate. Isa.43 Verses 7 and 21 " every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." ..."the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise. It's up to you, make the RIGHT choice IF YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT SIN SEND ME A PM God Bless you, Pat __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."   #25   Jul 28, '11, 5:45 pm Jerry-Jet Regular Member   Join Date: September 7, 2006 Posts: 2,564 Religion: Catholic Re: Should we take the Mortal Sin dogma seriously? Thistle is 100% correct. Dying in a state of mortal sin = Hell! If the whole world knew this and believed it to be true--how many conversions would there be? Mortal sin is a hard truth that someone needs to teach.   #26   Jul 28, '11, 6:03 pm Dragonslayer Banned   Join Date: July 7, 2011 Posts: 160 Religion: Catholic Re: Should we take the Mortal Sin dogma seriously? Some very good answers that I could not improve on. But, I would answer the OP's question with another question. "Why take the risk?"   #27   Jul 28, '11, 11:17 pm Crumpy Regular Member   Join Date: January 29, 2006 Posts: 2,970 Religion: Catholic Re: Should we take the Mortal Sin dogma seriously? Was my response (post #2) harsh? As a matter of fact, I haven't been to sunday Mass for maybe over two years. I've been taking care of my mother for 11 years and she has been falling. She has other very serious health conditions, too. I've heard "serious reason ... for missing Mass" as including caring for a sick child. Even if I confess my sins to a priest in confession, I still have to prostrate myself before God for not worshipping Him as I ought to. Harsh? I'm old enough, had enough examples in my life to know not to judge others. I'm surely not judging anyone. There's a lot of things I like about Judaism. One is their positive attitude towards God's commandments. (see Psalm 119) Ps 119:14 I rejoice over the way of Your decrees as over all riches. Pa 119:32 I eagerly pursue Your commandments, for You broaden my understanding 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. (Jewish Publication Society translation) Elsewhere in the Psalms I was glad when they said to me, we shall go up to the house of the LORD. __________________ I rejoiced when they said to me, let us go up to the house of the Lord.   #28   Jul 29, '11, 1:19 am Little One0307 Banned Greeter Prayer Warrior Book Club Member   Join Date: May 14, 2011 Posts: 12,464 Religion: Roman Catholic faithful to The Magisterium Re: Should we take the Mortal Sin dogma seriously? Hi, Thistle Good for you. Thistle is right. There is no watering down this dogma. Here's what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about this. Emphasis as always are mine. paragraph 1033 Quote: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." pragraph 1034 Quote: Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!" paragraph 1035 Quote: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. paragraph 1036 Quote: The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Quote: Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth." paragraph 1037 Quote: God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance": Quote: Father, accept this offering from your whole family. Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen. ---------------------------- God bless.   #29   Jul 29, '11, 1:23 am Little One0307 Banned Greeter Prayer Warrior Book Club Member   Join Date: May 14, 2011 Posts: 12,464 Religion: Roman Catholic faithful to The Magisterium Re: Should we take the Mortal Sin dogma seriously? Hi, Another source. From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Dr. Ludwig Ott. The souls of those who die in the condition of personl grievous sin enter Hell. [DE FIDE] ---------------------------------- The Church is very clear on what happens if one dies in a state of mortal sin. However never does the Church say who is in hell or not, this judgement is reserved to God alone. But the Church constantly urges repentence and going to Confession and being in a state of grace. Hell is a horrible reality. To be separated from the the one who created us to have Union with Him forever, is a reality that is terrifying to contemplate. Do whatever it takes to stay in a state of grace. God bless.